#16 Yesterday, 10:43 PM
Oilpatch Hand
Slick When Wet
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,601

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdlady
http://www.abc4.com/business/story.a...5-387FC25ADECA

"The first is the price of crude oil, which in early trading Friday was just $3 off its record of $69.91 per barrel -- largely on geopolitical fears about Iran and Nigeria.

The second is the government's requirement that gasoline refiners stop using MTBE, or methyl tertiary butyl ether, that adds octane and cuts pollution. Refiners invested heavily in MTBE production facilities 20 years ago when Washington virtually required it. But MTBE has been found in drinking water and the politically connected ethanol industry is successfully pushing their product as a MTBE substitute.

Costs entailed in switching gasoline-making facilities from MTBE to ethanol is straining the system -- and sending ethanol prices sky high. Further, ethanol carries an import tariff of 54 cents a gallon as well as an ad valorem tax of 2.5 percent. "

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/12/maga...tune/index.htm
"There's no harm in having the government keep a closer watch on the energy industry, and Kohl's sympathy for consumers is commendable, but blaming Big Oil for high gas prices is a little like blaming McDonald's (Research) for obesity. (Yes, I know that also makes for effective politics.)

Because while those profits might seem outrageous - ExxonMobil (Research) earned over $36 billion last year - Big Oil makes its money by pumping oil out of the ground, not refining and selling it as gasoline. Of Exxon's mammoth haul, only a tiny fraction came from making and selling gas in the U.S.

The idea that prices are set by Big Oil, not the traders at the NYMEX and other global bourses, is a misconception that seems to come into vogue whenever energy prices start making new highs. And putting the blame on OPEC, let alone trying to subject a foreign cartel to U.S. laws, seems to be doing anything but dealing honestly with the problem of too much demand and too little supply here at home."



Thank you for a badly needed injection of reason.

When demand decreases, supply will increase, and prices will drop commensurately. How do you decrease demand? Don't buy gasoline. It's surprising how it doesn't occur to so many purportedly rational individuals that if they think gasoline is too expensive, they should refrain from buying it.

Funny thing, though...nobody on this thread who is publicly inciting violence against oil industry professionals has bothered to explain how if they shot every last oil industry employee in the street it would result in lower gasoline prices.

I want somebody to explain how that's going to work. Really, I do.

Getting back to Realityville, the only thing that can help in the short run is lower demand. Unless you can figure out a way to produce and distribute more ethanol. Remember...ethanol corrodes pipelines. You can't transport it that way. So you're limited to trucking it around. And that constrains the amount of ethanol you can make available.

I'm surprised nobody has nailed Archer Daniels Midland as the corporate Mr. Big in this gasoline price conspiracy.



#17 Yesterday, 10:50 PM
TIK
Slightly cynical but open
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 1,429

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Olson
Stripped of all BS, here's MHO....

Last fall, the oil companies got those prices established, and no oil execs or politicians were dragged out and shot. There were no riots over gas prices. We bent over as a nation and took it in the keester.

In short - they're this high because WE ALLOWED IT, and TPTB saw that we did.

We only have ourselves to blame. The time is SOON for the bullets to start flying....

JMHO


HELLO!! I've been saying the same dang things, Dennis. Review some of my old threads. And we'll KEEP taking it in the keester as long as we DON'T change our driving habits. And just as I was saying to my wife, that will NEVER happen. NEVER. People are too selfish and ignorant of the world around them to hope that.
__________________
TIK
NOT SO Safe and snug behind the Orange Curtain in Orange County, California--as of January 30, 2006--May GOD BLESS THIS COUNTRY!

Our government obviously is OBLIVIOUS.



#18 Yesterday, 10:54 PM
SKTRGNLDR
Contributing Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: TENNESSEE
Posts: 128

YOU GUYS EVER HEARD OF THE COMMODITIES/FUTURES MARKET?
__________________
"Life is like a sewer...what you get out of it, depends upon what you put into it"!

Torture A Terrorist...The life you save might be your own!



#19 Yesterday, 11:06 PM
Hiding Bear
Who's hiding?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,296

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingbear
I do not like the exxon CEO, but he is just reaping a windfall profit. Oil is not up nearly as much as many other things, housing and healthcare to name but two. And oil company profit growth has lagged far behind banks and financial companies for well over a decade - although this appears to be changing.

How long do we think that we can just issue trillions of electronic dollars and buy up 80% of the world's resources without producing anything that anyone wants? Oil demand from china and india are exploding, and production cannot keep up. They have all our dollars...but we will just print more. And it will get worse.

An ounce of gold will still buy the same amount of oil that it did a few years ago, but your dollar won't. Understand this, and you can find the real culprit behind the move in oil prices.

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/inflation.htm


Well put. I personally don't believe any executive should be paid more than $10 million a year or so (but allowed to buy as much stock as he/she wants). But having said that, the ex chief of Exxon is actually getting proportionally less of the profits than what other executives are making relative to the sales at their companies.

I have been talking here about the price-rising impact of the coming ethanol changeover weeks ago, but in reality the latest move is more specifically related about worries concerning Iran - and the price that may have to be paid to secure smaller supplies of oil with dollars that have no intrinsic value.

While the Fed talks tough about maintaining the dollar's value through higher interst rates, in reality what the world thinks the value of the dollar should be is more important. As long as everyone around the world accepts paper US dollars for real goods, inflation stays at a managable level. In the early 70s when France and then OPEC didn't want to accept dollars any longer, inflation sprinted ahead. We may be on the verge of something similar here.

So oil companies, government regulations and other factors are to blame for higher gasoline prices - but in the longer run the most important factor is the available supply of oil and the amount of dollars that need to be produced to maintain our standard of living.



#20 Yesterday, 11:27 PM
Ruckmanite
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 957

OK, I'll throw myself under the bus for oil companies.

First, what is wrong with a 10% profit margin? You guys don't bitch about Wal-Mart making over 10%, nor any other company.

Second, let us have a basic review on just how screwed we are, evil oil companies or not, and examine the real cause of the oil disaster we face.

1. There have been no new refineries built in the USA since the 1970's due to
NIMBY and EPA crap. If you are an oil company, and you want to build a
refinery here in the CONUS, it is 5 billion+ to get things to ground breaking. The demand for refined products exceeds the capabilities we have to refine gas right now. We import refined products every day.

2. Remember Katrina and Rita? Those hurricanes clobbered the Gulf coast refineries and natural gas and offshore oil platforms. We are still down 20% from pre-hurricane 05 levels. Those things aren't cheap. Shell lost it's Mars platform, and BP nearly lost the massive Thunderhorse.
3. Depletion, depletion, depletion. We peaked here in CONUS in 1970 per King Hubbert's prediction. We produced 10 MBPD then, and only 5-6 now. Imports make up the difference. Prudhoe Bay peaked in the late 80's at 2 million barrels/day and is now down to 950,000 barrels per day. Do the math.

4. The big players, specifically Saudi Arabia, Mexico, and Kuwait are in deep trouble. Mexico's Cantarrel field, by Pemex's own reports, is in decline, and faces catastrophic decline rates over the next 3 years. Ghawar, the king of kings of oil fields in Saudi Arabia, is rolling over, as water cut is nearing 40% and over. Aramco's own reports forecast an 8% decline YOY for existing fields, that's 760 thousand barrels per day. Not chump change.

5. Kuwait peaked, and is in decline.

6. Nigeria has booted Shell out of the country, with death threats to all workers who dare to return. Kiss goodbye another 600,000 barrels/day.

7. China and India are growing rapidly, and their thirst for oil is also. The absolute supply demand ratio is now balanced, and demand is outstripping supply right now.

8. The ethanol/MTBE debacle is unfolding. We don't have enough ethanol to make up for the lost MTBE, and their is no distribution via pipelines for ethanol (it is corrosive to pipelines).

9. The EPA's of many states have made it so difficult for refineries that we have some 50 or so blends of unleaded gas here in the country.

10. NEW EPA rules regarding sulfur content in fuels are requiring more refineries to shut down and retool. The ppm is being drastically lowered, and this comes at a greatly increased cost. You think Chavez is going to take a huge loss and retool his CITGO refineries on the Gulf Coast to meet the new rules, or simply sell the fuel elsewhere where the EPA rules are less stringent? IIRC, those are now for sale.

11. Now toss in Iran/Iraq/terrorists/Mid-East instability and you get a risk premium.

12. Our FRn's are quickly becoming a joke. The world's oil is priced in dollars, and the Iranian Oil bourse, and the possible Russian direct sale of oil for Euro's will tank the dollar. Toss that in also.

It isn't just the evil oil companies fault. Pin a portion of the blame on the EPA with a zillion blends of fuel, winter and summer, and the FACT that it is nearly impossible to build a refinery here, and wow, we are suprised that fuel would actually rise in price??? It is a bit more complex than that friends.

If you want to learn a bit more, from a less emotional standpoint, and one supported by facts, check out the downstreamers oil board, and theoildrum.com and rigzone.com (very cool photos of just how massive offshore rigs are).


#21 Today, 12:11 AM
Birdlady
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 638

Oilpatch Hand said:
"I'm surprised nobody has nailed Archer Daniels Midland as the corporate Mr. Big in this gasoline price conspiracy."


I DID mention this:
Archer Daniels Midland comes to mind.

"Theres politics in this - favoring farming lobbies over oil lobbies. Both those lobbies are big and powerful."
http://energystockblog.com/article/8577


#22 Today, 01:39 AM
Y2kO
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,010

The price of crude oil is set by movements on the three major international petroleum exchanges, all of which have their own Web sites featuring information about oil prices. They are the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX, http://www.nymex.com), the International Petroleum Exchange in London (IPE, http://www.ipe.uk.com) and the Singapore International Monetary Exchange (SIMEX, http://www.simex.com.sg).

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/ar...257188,00.html

SPECIAL REPORT
Speculators hijack oil market
September 12, 2004

Prices have been forced up unnecessarily as investment banks and hedge funds join the black gold rush. Robert Winnett reports:

A LARGE WAREHOUSE in Amsterdam may seem an unusual place to attract the Citys top traders and hedge funds. But, in the past few months, Morgan Stanley has been accumulating warehouse space in the Netherlands to store its hottest new property oil.

This and the tankers that have been hired by the investment bank illustrate just how important oil is now becoming in the City of London and Wall Street.

Morgan Stanley may be among the most advanced of the new breed of oil speculators, but, over the past year, many banks and hedge funds have joined the black gold rush. With the stock market proving lacklustre, the oil market has been a godsend for the banks, which describe it as the new Nasdaq.

Speculators have helped to drive oil prices to near record levels peaking at almost $50 a barrel last month. Oil is the talk of the City with many millions of pounds being made every day, and oil traders are among the most sought-after employees.

If you can spell derivative, you can earn six figures, and anyone who can navigate his way round the oil market is offered $1m just to sign a contract, said one trading executive.

There have traditionally been two distinct oil markets. The first is the futures markets in London and New York that trade the right to buy oil at a predetermined point in the future. About one-sixth of all oil is sold this way, although most contracts are traded and then lapse without oil changing hands.

This paper market, the main stamping ground for speculators, acts as a benchmark for the price of oil in the second market crude bought direct from oil companies.

If prices on the futures market rise too far above the so-called physical market, oil users such as airlines and petrol dealers pull out, so prices fall. If prices on the futures market are lower than in the physical market, the users pile in, pushing up prices.

However, this traditional equilibrium has been rocked by short-term speculators dipping in and out of the futures market. This has led to sharp rises in the price and far more volatility.

Meanwhile, banks such as Morgan Stanley are also beginning to move into the physical market to buy oil or even entire oilfields.

Morgan Stanley recently won the contract to supply fuel to United Airlines, and Goldman Sachs recently bought 10m barrels of oil.

A senior oil company executive said: Even within this firm, the mechanics of the market are not widely understood. When oil prices go up, everyone talks about fundamentals and geopolitics, but the role of speculators and banks is now very significant.

In the City, Barclays, Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs are leading the charge into oil but, in addition, several secretive hedge funds are now wagering hundreds of millions of dollars every day in the oil market and reaping the dividends. Over the past few months, ABN Amro has also built up an oil-trading team.

[...]

The International Energy Authority, an intergovernmental organisation, recently criticised the role of speculators. They have also been attacked by French and American government ministers. Alan Greenspan, chairman of Americas Federal Reserve Board, said that speculators had caused oil prices to surge.

A secret analysis of the market carried out by a big European oil company recently found that speculators were adding between $7 and $8 or between 15% and 20% to the price of a barrel of oil.

This month, rocketing petrol prices forced Gordon Brown, the chancellor, to delay a proposed increase in fuel duty.

A senior executive at one oil firm said: This is the hottest oil market I have ever seen. There has been a massive increase in hedge-fund activity. And what we call non-commercial interests (those who do not use oil for their business) has doubled recently.

A lot of new banks are coming in and all the speculation is very disruptive.

Much of the trading by hedge funds has been driven by sophisticated computer-trading models. The models, known as black boxes, use complicated formulas to determine trades for a hedge fund.

Over the past few years, a number of hedge funds have added the oil markets to their trading systems as the price of oil tends to rise sharply after periods of strong economic growth. Hedge-fund insiders therefore say that oil is an excellent short-term bet.

The sharp rises and falls in the market over the past month are symptomatic of such computer-generated trading. Prices rose sharply to almost $50 a barrel, at which point the computers kicked in to automatically sell huge positions.

Last week, the computer trading models kicked in again to cause the biggest daily fall in oil prices for three months a drop of 4% to $42.81 a barrel.

Jeffrey Currie, head of commodities research at Goldman Sachs said: The number of speculators is typically correlated with high economic growth. They work off macro-economic trading models.

Equities are anticipatory assets you buy them when you expect the economy to do well but commodities such as oil are spot assets that you buy when the economy has done well.

Man Groups AHL hedge fund and Aspect Capital Management are two of the London-based funds that have moved heavily into oil.

Stephen Butler, an oil expert at Aspect, said: We are one of the biggest in Europe and have built up our exposure over the past 18 months. We probably have up to $250m (£140m) exposure a day on the London and New York markets.

Our trading is determined by computer so we dont have the emotional factor. It has worked well on the energy markets and has been one of our best-performing sectors.

But apart from the short-term speculators, the investment banks have also identified a looming oil crunch, which has encouraged them to move aggressively into the market.

Goldman Sachs calculates that for the first time this year demand for oil will outstrip the worlds capacity to refine and distribute it.

Benoit de Vitry, head of commodities at Barclays Capital, said: The oil system has cracked. There is a lack of refinery and distribution capacity. The spare capacity is now down to 1m barrels a day. People are not worried about having their meal on the table today, but fears are growing about the future.

According to Goldman Sachs, the capacity of oil tankers and oil refineries has been dropping since the early 1980s because of a lack of investment, and the crunch will come this year. Since 1983, real spending on exploration and production of energy has fallen by 49.5%. To build the extra infrastructure that is required will take years, possibly more than a decade, to complete.

The International Energy Agency forecasts that over the next 30 years the energy industry globally will require $16,000 billion in new investment to catch up and it is not clear where this money will come from.

Apart from the oft-quoted, short-term oil price, there is also a lesser-known market in long-term oil futures the right to buy oil in five years time. This has traditionally been a rather staid market, and the price of a barrel of oil in the long-term market has been around $20 for most of the past 20 years. However, over the past 18 months, the price has rocketed to $35 a barrel as the speculators have moved in.

The bleak, long-term outlook for oil prices is also why banks have begun to buy up oil supplies directly. Morgan Stanley and Deutsche bank recently bought the rights to 36m barrels of oil between 2007 and 2010 direct from a North Sea oilfield.


#23 Today, 01:47 AM
Y2kO
Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,010

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/ener...+Senator+Kerry

April 6, 2004

President George Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

United States Senator John Kerry
304 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510

Dear President Bush and Senator Kerry,

In recent days, both of you have weighed in on the high price of gasoline in the United States. Unfortunately, the debate has not yet turned to the main cause of the recent gasoline price spikes. That has little to do with OPEC but is a result of the deliberate restriction of supply by the highly consolidated domestic refining industry.

We write you with new internal Shell documents showing manipulation of supply at domestic refineries and ask that both of you call for an immediate moratorium on refinery closures in the United States. The documents available at http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/utilities/rp/ show Shell is shuttering its highly profitable Bakersfield refinery -- artificially restricting the supply of California gasoline to drive up the price and lying to the public about it.

The April 5th "Alliance Refining Update" document shows that Bakersfield, which supplies 2% of California's reformulated gasoline, has the biggest margins of any Shell refinery in the nation-- or $23.01 per barrel, about 55 cents profit per gallon. That means, for example, that margins are 36 cents per gallon higher in Bakersfield than in Port Arthur Texas. The internal document comments under the category of refinery margins "Wow." Yet Shell has publicly stated it is closing the Bakersfield facility, and not selling the refinery, because it is not profitable.

The case of Shell's Bakersfield closure, discussed further below, shows how refiners have consciously closed refineries and maintained low inventories because they know that in a speculative commodities market the scarcer the commodity, the higher the price. When there's a shock to the system, the market anticipates a shortage and spikes the price of the commodity. Since it doesn't cost refiners any more to make the gasoline when the price is high, their profits soar too.

In the wake of soaring gasoline prices in the Midwest two years ago, for example, the Federal Trade Commission found low inventories to blame for price spikes following a pipeline break. One refiner, Marathon, even acknowledged to the FTC that it had no incentive to bring gasoline in quickly since that would lower the price. Days ago Saudi Arabia similarly pointed to limited refining capacity as an explanation of higher US gas prices.

As you may know, Californians are paying the highest prices for gasoline the nation, up to 50 cents per gallon more than most other areas in the nation. The culprit is low inventories and restricted refining capacity maintained by the five oil refiners that control 90% of California's special CARB fuel.

Given this restriction of supply, it's shocking that Shell would announce the closure of yet another refinery responsible for 2% of the state's gasoline supply. That would bring the number of refineries in California making CARB fuel to 12, from 37 in 1983, despite a burgeoning population. Everyone seems to be aware that local refineries can barely meet our needs for CARB gasoline and the lack of refining capacity is recognized as a major factor in the higher pump prices. Closing yet another refinery would undoubtedly cause prices to rise even further.

This market obviously functions like no other. If there were a computer shortage, would any computer maker close computer factories?

When Shell announced its intentions to close its refinery in Bakersfield by October of 2004, the company blamed poor profitability and a declining crude supply in the San Juaquin Valley. Shell stated in its press release that the refinery's continued operation is "no longer economically viable" because "there is simply no longer an adequate supply of crude oil to justify the continued operation of this facility." The Seattle Times also reported on March 6th: "Shell will close the plant because it was unprofitable and didn't receive enough oil from the area to keep operating, said James Frazier, a company spokesman."

The new evidence obtained by the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights (FTCR) shows Shell has deceived the public with these statements and that it intends to demolish the refinery to keep gasoline off the market, and the price of gasoline high, rather than sell the refinery. Your united call to keep this refinery and others open can stop such anti-competitive behavior.

Shell has admitted to the media and its own employees that it has not sought to sell the refinery. That's confirmed by internal documents showing a timetable to decommission and demolish the Bakersfield refinery right after shut down in mid-September. The company implied no other oil company would want the refinery as it is unprofitable and any buyer would face the crude shortage.

Since Shell's announcement, industry observers, local crude producers, and analysts at the California Department of Conservation, Division of Oil, Gas and Geothermal Resources have questioned the notion that the Bakersfield refinery could run out of crude. They have pointed out how California is ranked 3rd behind Alaska and Texas for size of crude oil reserves and ranks 4th amongst the states in crude production. FTCR is now convinced a 20 year supply of local crude is available for processing in Bakersfield.

In addition to the April 5th update, an internal Shell Power Point Presentation titled "People, Planet, Results February 2004 Shell Bakersfield Refinery" disproves the claim Bakersfield is not profitable as the company displays positive net earnings for 5 out of the last 7 years.

Moreover, an end-of-2003 memo from Shell manager Jeff Krafve to fellow refinery employees says it all: "[W]e turned in excellent operational performance this year. We are the most reliable US Shell refinery in 2003, and achieved world-class performance two years in row now. We have made quantum step improvements in our environmental compliance, finishing well under target again for the second straight year. We have reduced the expense we control 15+% year over year, and have been one of the few Shell U.S. refineries to turn a profit¿.We've done this with the lowest personnel index in Shell refining in the country, making us comparatively the most productive and effective workforce in the system."

Owning a refinery with this type of profitability located in the largest gasoline market of the in the world, why wouldn't Shell offer to sell the refinery rather than close it? Interviews of workers at the refinery provide the answers.

Refinery workers in Bakersfield told FTCR that Aamir Farid, General Manager of the Shell's refinery, stated to hundreds of employees at an employee meeting that the company would never sell the refinery because it did not want the competition. This suggests the real motivation for the company to close the refinery is to ensure its production does not stay on line and further decrease competition for the company's remaining two refineries in California.

If the Bakersfield refinery is closed, Californians will undoubtedly suffer even greater economic harm at the pump due to the loss of treasured refining capacity for our unique blend of CARB gasoline and diesel fuel. Both the loss of CARB fuel refining capacity and the damage to competition will be nearly impossible for the state of California to reverse in the future.

Together you have an opportunity to stop Shell from closing this refinery and to maintain the nation's refining capacity by calling for a moratorium on all refinery closures in the United States. It's the right thing to do not only for Americans' bank accounts, but also for our national security. As the bulldozers are apparently on the way to Bakersfield, time is of the essence.


Sincerely,
Jamie Court Tim Hamilton
President Petroleum Consultant

his threat backfired...

today where i live gasoline jumped 20 cents to $3.199 per gallon regular

oh, suddenly people are voicing their freedom of speech!

just like Katrina (no reference to Kat, of course) the $3.00 mark is the breaking point

next oil company objective is $4.00...

<Put up or shut up>	April 18, 2006 02:54 PM quote: Originally posted by But wait, there's more!!!: He also was posting on how to cover your licence plates while stealing gas at your local filling station. He is, was and always will be nuts. Not to mention his $30,000,000 super bike is a frigging HONDA. Link please

<Charlie Fan>	April 18, 2006 04:24 PM quote: Originally posted by Rodeo Rectum: I agree with Charlie

Swampthing	April 18, 2006 04:27 PM Hide Post quote: Originally posted by Charlie Fan: quote: Originally posted by Rodeo Rectum: I agree with Charlie Charlie, this Buds for you!
	Posts: 76 | Registered: January 23, 2003

April 18, 2006 04:27 PM Show Post

<Dr. Phil>	April 18, 2006 05:53 PM It is my opinion that the leader of TB2k is a total psycho and needs to be institutionalized IMMEADEATLY!!

<Phoney Detector>	April 18, 2006 06:36 PM Eat **** and die Dr. Phil. P.S. Have a nice day futhermucker

<Lazy Ass>

April 18, 2006 07:11 PM quote: Originally posted by But wait, there's more!!!: He also was posting on how to cover your licence plates while stealing gas at your local filling station. He is, was and always will be nuts. Not to mention his $30,000,000 super bike is a frigging HONDA. Link please DO mentioned it in his Can I get a free place to stay while on my way to the HONDA dealership to get my bike fixed thread. Go look it up yourself, I'm too busy.

Agent Smith

April 19, 2006 08:26 AM Hide Post quote: Originally posted by Final Countdown: this is his looney-toon version of why gas prices are up . . . . . . quote: Dennis Olson Chief Curmudgeon Join Date: May 2001 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 27,459 ENER - WHY ARE GAS PRICES SO HIGH (and going higher)? Stripped of all BS, here's MHO.... Last fall, the oil companies got those prices established, and no oil execs or politicians were dragged out and shot. There were no riots over gas prices. We bent over as a nation and took it in the keester. In short - they're this high because WE ALLOWED IT, and TPTB saw that we did. We only have ourselves to blame. The time is SOON for the bullets to start flying.... JMHO __________________ And, this is his solution to the problem . . . . . quote: Yesterday, 09:58 PM Dennis Olson Chief Curmudgeon Join Date: May 2001 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 27,459 Once Exxon/Mobil's $13,700/hr CEO takes a bullet in the head, you'll see things change. I don't care HOW much money he has. He'll stop a bullet the same as anyone else. Tick tock..... http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=193949 The only SHTF on that board will be when the owner is arrested and dragged off to prison . . . .

Posts: 35 | Registered: February 18, 2005

April 19, 2006 08:26 AM Show Post

CanadaSue Under Cover Kitty

April 19, 2006 08:39 AM Hide Post If 'they' allowed it to happen to themselves, shouldn't they be shooting each other... if you want to follow the 'logic' & all... Is it winter yet?

-- Edited by Kat at 03:46, 2007-05-04